What's the Best Hot Tub

Author Topic: Went back to that scary place and ...  (Read 3331 times)

Vinny

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Went back to that scary place and ...
« on: August 05, 2007, 10:16:26 pm »
... not so scarry after all! Here's some info for all of us non spa professionals.

I was able to get this info from their version of Vermonter and he is either a chemist or a chemical engineer by the way he knows chemistry.

Here is what I found:

Pseudonomas don't "just happen" in a tub. Even with an outbreak of bacteria (cloudy tub), there's no Pseudonomas growing unless it is introduced into the tub. The good news is Pseudonomas bacteria is easily killed as long as you keep the chlorine at acceptable levels (Vermonter always preaches this) but the bad news is that as CYA goes up the free chlorine (FC) becomes bound and becomes less useful. It can still kill regular bacteria but it can't kill the Pseudonomas unless you use high levels of chlorine. Once dead though Pseudonomas won't come back until reintroduced. Unfortunately, your tub can be infected by someone who goes into an infected tub, dries their suit (with humidity nothing dries 100%) and goes into your tub. Pseudonomas can be washed off bodies and clothing with warm, sudsy (soap) washing. I always thought that Pseudonomas would just grow in a tub.

Dichlor use is OK for killing regular bacteria and for killing Pseudonomas when the water is new but as you use dichlor (dichlor adds approx 1 PPM CYA for every PPM chlorine) the killing power decreases. I knew that for pools you need to increase the residue chlorine content as CYA increases. What happens in a spa is that within a month the CYA has risen to the point where very little FC is actually active. It's enough to kill bacteria as long as you give it sufficient contact time.

Now for something I will need to experiment with and think about - using bleach. Apparently, the reaction of chlorine reacting to the stuff it's reacting to is acidic and counter acts the higher PH of bleach. Although dichlor starts out as PH neutral the end result is it turns more acid which is why the PH and alkalinity drops in the tub. Now I didn't drink the koolaid (or bleach) as I originally thought it was crazy but maybe there's something there. Switching to bleach has only one benefit that I can see - it can kill the Pseudonomas bacteria even at 2 1/2 months out since there's no CYA in the water. It may even be cheaper but the only problem might be is the TDS which they claim only to be salt and salt may be a problem - though he claims it won't. Apparently salt is involved with the breakdown of any chlorine and using bleach would add 2x the amount of salt as using dichlor. So at 3 months out you would have 2 x the PPM salt than you do now.

As I said I have to think about bleach - all the other stuff sounds OK. The only real reason to switch to bleach would be for that Pseudonomas killing effect but  I guess if I never experience it I really don't need to switch... more thinking to do on this. It wouldn't happen until AFTER the warranty expires! LOL ;D CYA in a pool can be a big problem but in a spa it serves no purpose and rises extremely fast. Use your tub 6 days a week, dose to 3 PPM and shock to 10 PPM on the 7th day and you would 6x3+10=28 PPM or close to the maximum you would want in a pool (or possibly spa)

I thought I would share my findings - I thought it was pretty interesting!

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Went back to that scary place and ...
« on: August 05, 2007, 10:16:26 pm »

tony

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Re: Went back to that scary place and ...
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2007, 10:30:37 pm »
Thanks Vinny.  It is interesting.  There are a couple of posters there that seem to have credibility.  One of them posts at poolspa forum also.  My warranty is up in two weeks.  I will be "experimenting" a little after that. ;)

Renee

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Re: Went back to that scary place and ...
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2007, 07:15:07 am »
Quote
... not so scarry after all! Here's some info for all of us non spa professionals.
Pseudonomas don't "just happen" in a tub. Even with an outbreak of bacteria (cloudy tub), there's no Pseudonomas growing unless it is introduced into the tub. The good news is Pseudonomas bacteria is easily killed as long as you keep the chlorine at acceptable levels (Vermonter always preaches this) but the bad news is that as CYA goes up the free chlorine (FC) becomes bound and becomes less useful. It can still kill regular bacteria but it can't kill the Pseudonomas unless you use high levels of chlorine. Once dead though Pseudonomas won't come back until reintroduced. Unfortunately, your tub can be infected by someone who goes into an infected tub, dries their suit (with humidity nothing dries 100%) and goes into your tub. Pseudonomas can be washed off bodies and clothing with warm, sudsy (soap) washing. I always thought that Pseudonomas would just grow in a tub.

I thought I would share my findings - I thought it was pretty interesting!

Ok...stupid question from a newbie....what is a "pseudonoma"?   Also, what does CYA stand for?  

On a similar note, we heard about somebody that got a certain bacteria in their tub (I think it was staph, or something similar to that) and they were told they'd NEVER get it out of their tub, and they just as well junk it.  Is that true....is there any bacteria that you cannot get out of your tub?
Thanks for your patience with my questions.  :-/
--renee

tony

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Re: Went back to that scary place and ...
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2007, 09:52:59 am »
Quote

Ok...stupid question from a newbie....what is a "pseudonoma"?   Also, what does CYA stand for?  

On a similar note, we heard about somebody that got a certain bacteria in their tub (I think it was staph, or something similar to that) and they were told they'd NEVER get it out of their tub, and they just as well junk it.  Is that true....is there any bacteria that you cannot get out of your tub?
Thanks for your patience with my questions.  :-/
--renee


There are no stupid questions. :)

Pseudonoma is a bacteria whose natural habitat is soil and water.  Its ability to survive with minimal and diverse nutrients allow it to be common and abundant.  It also has the ability to form biofilms, a slimey sort of protection.  The warm water of a hot tub is a very inviting environment for this bacteria although it has the ability to grow at temperatures just over freezing.  Pseudonoma causes what is called hot tub rash or hot tub folliculitis which are red bumps similar to insect bites.

CYA is cyanuric acid or pool stabilizer.  It is needed in outdoor pools to protect chlorine from the suns ability to diminish it.  Normally in an outdoor pool you want 30-40 ppm CYA.  As CYA amounts increase, the protective properties inhibit chlorine from doing its job.  There are two chlorines that have CYA as part of their makeup, trichlor and dichlor.  Triclor comes in tabs and is used in feeders for pools only.  It has a very low pH.  Dichlor is granular, fast dissolving and close to pH neutral.  These properties make an ideal chorine for the small body of water in a hot tub.  Dichlor is, however, almost half CYA and heavy use can raise those numbers pretty high.

Staph is another bacteria which can be spread in a hot tub as well as many other places.  Chlorine will kill staph.  Don't know of any bacteria that would render a spa junk.  Proper maintenance will keep your water clean and healthy.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2007, 09:56:31 am by tony »

Vinny

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Re: Went back to that scary place and ...
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2007, 04:24:15 pm »
About the only thing chlorine has a tough time killing is cysts and even then without CYA it can kill some.

As Tony said there are no stupid questions ... OK there may be some stupid questions but this wasn't one! Heck for as long as I owned my tub I feared getting the hot tub itch and I come to find out that I don't need to worry about it too much unless it is introduced into my tub. I always feared that after a bacteria outbreak that I may come down with it.


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Re: Went back to that scary place and ...
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2007, 04:24:15 pm »

 

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