Comparing Hot Tub Options $4-6k - Springfield, MA

[rin-spa-aic]

I wanted to share my experience in shopping for a new Hot Tub.

Background: Growing up had a no-name built-in acrylic spa with remote equipment package. I was responsible for the care and maintenance of this hot tub, the pool, my uncle’s pool.  Two of my Uncle’s have Jacuzzi tubs.
More recently I oversaw the replacement of the built in because no pool/spa company I contacted would service a leak.  I ended up replacing it with a Bradford SS tub, which is awesome.
Over 20 years of managing the family pools and hot tubs, my confidence in the industry and local industry people could not be lower.

I laid out a budget of $4,000-$6,000 which my fiancé was amenable to.

Over the past 2 weeks, I did a ton of internet research on all the local dealers and spas I could find available in my price range. All the models listed below I had a price or promis to be <$6000 before I even left the house.
Spa will be used majority of the time by 1 person, sometimes 2, and occasionally 4.

Models researched/considered:
Arctic Spa – Cub, No return call from dealer (on-line chat was very helpful though)
Bullfrog – No return call from dealer (and they service my parent’s pool!)
Caldera – Vanto, Marino
Costco / Aquaterra – Milano, Newporter II
D1 – No local dealer
Freeflow – Accent, Azure
Hot Spring / Hot Spot – Relay, Rhythm terrible previous service experiences with local dealer (area’s biggest pool company)
Jacuzzi – 235, 245, 210
Master / Twilight –7.2, 7.25
Maax / Elite / Cooperage – (not initially considered)
Nordic – Crown II, Crown XL
Sundance – Peyton, Denali

I set this past Saturday as “Spa Research Day”.  The regional fair was in town and it was a good opportunity to see a lot of different hot tubs. Plus I left plenty of time to visit local dealers if required.
Before I set out, on paper my favorites were: Nordic Crown XL, Sundance Peyton / Jacuzzi 235, Caldera Marino.

We walked into the fair and the first spa we hit was Maax, Maax? I had basically ignored this brand in the pre-qualification for two reasons 1) price expected out of my range, 2) when I searched the listed dealer before fair, I found the wrong one (same name different local state) and thought they were too far away.
The sales guy kept us focused on the Maax Collection and Elite Spas, pretty much staying away from the California Cooperage and Vita Spas also on display, although I did climb in some Vitas.
We listened to the whole pitch and went in and out of all the tubs they had. I figured at least it was a good warm up for the fiancé.  Leaving the display we had some informal prices on the Maax Collection 461 and Maax Elite 7500.  Both looked to be great tubs, both out of the set budget.

Second we perused the Master Spa giant tent. I was expecting the “used car sales” aggressive technique that has been mentioned many times on these boards.  We were one of the only customers in huge tent with probably a half dozen sales staff and none of them even looked our direction.  Based on previous research I wasn’t really interested anyway, so we moved on.

Third we visited the Jacuzzi / Sundance tent. The local guy I had conversed with prior to the fair was busy with customers so a Jacuzzi factory guy gave us a tour of the tubs. First we looked at the Peyton. Immediately I noticed the pillows hit funny on my shoulders/neck, which was not comfortable. Then looked at the Jacuzzi 235, pillows were much better situated for someone my height of 6’1”.  Finally looked at the Jacuzzi 245 which was the best fit of all. The 235/Peyton basically lose the area where your feet go on the lounge, impossible to squeeze someone there even if you wanted to.Also looked at a Denali, see below same for all round tubs. They offered us an additional “fair” incentive several hundred below the pre-fair price for a model that was “pre-configured and already on order from the factory”.

Then we stopped by the Hot Spot dealer to look at the Relay, Rhythm models similar to the Caldera models and check out the Freeflow.  Freeflow were big ugly hunks of plastic, they were out immediately (I’m sure they were functional and built down into a deck or in a stone landscape would be fine).
The Hot Springs / Hot Spot spas looked nice, comparable to the Jacuzzi models.
Quality seem would have been enough to justify a visit the local Caldera dealer showroom for a closer look at a tub coming from a reputable dealer.

Finally we went to look at a Master / Nordic showroom. Fiance looked at the Nordic models and declared them to seem “cheap”. I sat in one and was not happy with the height of the bench and depth of footwell.  Maybe it would have been different if they had a Crown XL, but unfortunately they didn’t. I was a little sad because I like the round style tubs, but bottom line is that the standard Crown II was too small for me.
While there we checked out the Twilight series spas.  These seemed pretty nice on the surface with impressive jet power. However the side panel was off of one of the Twilight spas.  Even if we were considering one, the construction inside would have scared me away. It was a bunch of boards stapled together with equipment bolted on.  It did not even look organized, more like they stapled some wood in there and bolted the equipment to it.
I gave the spa tech a wide open shot to discuss the Maax brand and all he would say is that the open design is questionable for heat. No other negative comment.

[rin-spa-aic]

After visiting the Master  / Nordic dealer we were ready to make a decision.
We would spend a bit more and get something that we are both comfortable with, the Maax Elite 7500.
Comfortable enough to make a deposit and sleep on it with 3 days of penalty free buyer's remorse.

However, one more step required to go home and spend more hours researching Maax.

Reasoning:
Fit finish and construction – I work daily with quality departments in major manufactures across all industries. My opinion is that the construction on the Maax Collection and Elite Spas appeared to be very good. Finish was maybe not perfect, but good.
Features – I felt like we got a lot more features. Dedicated neck/shoulder massage seat, more advanced controller, more jets, lighting, air blower, warranty, etc.
The spa was around $1300 more than the best price we had on Jacuzzi/Caldera. I’m not sure what we might have got if we went up with the others because everything else we were shown was supposed $8000+ out the door.
Warranty – 5 year labor was important and better than typical warranty in range we were looking.
Open design – I’m unconvinced as to heat retention full foam vs. open cabinet, my gut tells me that FF should work better. However I have also experienced first hand the trouble of getting service on FF when you have a leak. With the open design I feel like I could open the hot tub up and service it myself, even if the dealer went out of business tomorrow. Also I read on-line several places techniques for adding insulation which all seemed affordable and not difficult (that’s if my electric bill does go through the roof).
Checked out on-line – I searched and found very little negative information regarding Maax hot tubs or experiences.  I also checked out Maax, the local dealer, and a half dozen or more Maax dealers BBB ratings, every place I checked with a rating was A+ and there were very low numbers of incidents.

My take on the Elite 7500:
The spa was comfortable to sit in, even the shoulder/neck seat which didn’t look comfortable from the outside. Also my fiancé has a lot of neck issues, so this actually was a big selling point. Another detail that I didn’t originally consider was the ability to sit comfortably on the side of the tub. With my parents, Uncles, and every hotel having a built-in, being able to sit on the side of the tub comfortably was something I just took for granted.
With the 7500 there was ample space to sit comfortably around the perimeter of the tub and dangle your feet in, I feel that many of the other tubs did not satisfy this.
Another bonus was the air blower, this is a feature I’m used to and didn’t think that I would be able to get at my price point.
Lighting and waterfalls were not a major concern of mine, but I did like the waterfall mounted above one of the comfortable large seats. Being able to turn it on or off without affecting anything else in the tub was also a plus. This tub had a ton of light points in it, which to me just raised the flag of that many more places to spring a leak, but that’s what the warranty is for.
This spa would seat 3 people very comfortably, 4+ I think may have hot-tub footsies.
Price – I feel that with my fiancé there and getting surprised by the Maax tubs we didn’t have enough ammunition or time to work out a better deal. Certainly I think that it was a fair price especially for a “fair”. My gut tells me I could have worked probably another $500+ if I was determined.

If my fiancé was not with me, I would have stayed in budget and ended up with either the Jacuzzi 245 or possibly a Caldera Vanto.
Then again without the neck jet type seat, it would be basically a 1 man spa most of the time 

I will update this after delivery and make a couple posts during the New England winter to let everyone know how things go.

Next steps, get the electric worked out in preparation.

[rin-spa-aic]

General notes:

Round tubs:  Small and foot-well too short for someone my height to sit in comfortably.

Lounge: I really wanted a lounge seat because that’s what I’m familiar with. However the bench and lounge seats from my past are not as common these days. The loungers we saw only seat 1 personally comfortably, another person could not sit in the foot area even if they wanted to. On most current models the foot area is typically molded with jets, sloped, or both making it an uncomfortable place for another person.

Roto vs. Acrylic: After much on-line research I think that both tech are acceptable to me. However the bottom line is that the Roto tubs all seemed to have cheesy or inferior cabinets. The tactile response to plastic vs. acrylic is also not as satisfying. I think it's hard to look at one side by side, but if you objectively saw just a roto tub with no acrylic models around you probably wouldn't think it was so bad.  As I said earlier, I think that if I got to get into a Crown XL and it had adequate depth in the footwell that it may have been my pick based on the price and features.

Features Included with Purchase: Everyone offered Ozone or UV, Steps, Cover with lifter, and installation at no charge (some did have a nominal delivery charge which was different from installation), most included starter chemicals, some added some bonus features.


Electrician scheduled to come today and evaluate adding the spa panel.
Some of the bonus features offered were addition of Ozone if the system came with UV, extra year of labor to compliment warranty, an air blower, and gift cards.

[Hottubguy]

Sounds like you went to the big E.  maax is always there right when you walk in.  Sounds like there were more spa dealers their this year then last.  Too bad you didn't get to see the crown Xl as I like that tub a lot. I would never recommend buying stub from a fair because a lot of times you can get a better deal in the stores. Nice thing about fairs is being Abe to see all the maes and models.

[jonnyboy2807]

Congrats on the Elite, I'm just starting on week 2 with my Elite 5600 here in eastern Ontario (between Montreal and Ottawa) and loving it.  I'm a reallllly big guy, height and mass, and I have been sitting easily on the edge and it feels as solid as rock. The only thing that worries me is that the cover (Sunstar) seems a little too thin for our winters (which aren't all that different from Springfield, maybe slightly colder but less snow).                       

I did think the Jacuzzi's were a little more.... elegant? ... in their look and feel, but all the features the Elite has feel and look sturdy, and work great.  We'll see how it goes over the winter... including the electric bill.

[rin-spa-aic]

It was the Big E and I guess because I called around to all the stores ahead of time, the prices didn't change much.
We also rode out to see the models not at the fair as well.

Fingers crossed, delivery and electrical install tomorrow.

Electrician determined that my current 100a service would likely support the hot tub as long as I'm not baking with the AC on.
$650 to run 50ft of wire, install the spa panel and connect the tub.  60a Seimens spa panel was additional $89 from Amazon.

It would have cost an additional $1800 to go up to 200a service.

Deck also had to be reinforced.

[rin-spa-aic]

As of Friday the Maax Elite 7500 is up and running.

Install went smoothly. It took 3 guys just over an hour to move it from the truck on to my 40" deck, install the cover lifter and clean up all the packaging.
Delivery was an A+ from local dealer 21st Century Pool in Chicopee MA.

The electrician showed up shortly afterward to install the spa-panel and wire the tub.  At which point I started filling the spa immediately with a mixture of cold water from the hose and hot water straight from my washing machine hookup   Starting point when filled 90 degrees.

Initial physical impressions:
Removed 2 side panels to do the electrical install, allowing me a good look at the inside of the tub:
- Confirmed my original impression that adding insulation would be a piece of cake. I will expand on this in another post.
- Raised some questions about the sales technique from Maax factory salesperson that sold me the tub.
q1) Steel construction, no wood.  This is not true, inside the ABS plastic base is a wood frame or platform that the equipment is bolted to. It is wrapped in radiant reflective insulation and appears to cover the entire base on top of the ABS.  There was a small tear near the electric panel which did show the wood. Otherwise I may not have known it was there. The side panels are reinforced with particleboard "recycled substrate", and there was some wood structure behind one of the sides I did not remove. I'm sure sure the extent.  The steel frame also has wood on top of it in places that looks to be added to the shell before the fiberglass is sprayed. No wood - false. Less wood is more accurate. Also the quality of the wood appeared a lot better than the inside of some other brands evaluated.
q2) Insulation. After reviewing the web-site I think that I misunderstood the sales pitch and was thinking there was a layer of insulation adhered to the inside of the tub. In fact there is not. I thought there was a layer on the tub and then the blue maax around the perimeter.  There is just the blue-maax which is a 2-3" recycled denim type insulation with radiant foil facing inward into the tub.

- Confirmed my pre-purchase impression that this tub is extremely serviceable.  If you are handy, you could work on this tub yourself, also a plumber could service any of the plumbing very easily.

- Raised a concern about the thickness of the acrylic shell.  I'm no expert but in some places particularly near the jets it seemed really thin, like sunlight was just shining right through it. I think these are spots with little or no fiberglass coverage. The 10/5 year warranty does give me a little bit of confidence though.

- Concerned that the electrician underestimated the load on the 100amp house as the main panel breaker did pop a couple times over the weekend. Fortunately the tub can be set to 40amp mode if required.  I will replace the main breaker this week and if it continues to pop, change the tub to 40amp until we decide to up our service to 200amp.  I would recommend 200amp service for anyone considering a 60amp.

- Cover, after jonnyboy2807's post I did look at the cover as well. I was happy to have received the sun-star cover. This cover is actually a notch or two (depending on who you look at) above the standard grade cover I expected to be "included" with the tub.  I agree we could have better, but my experience is that a 1.5lb foam cover is at least adequate for our New England winter.  Definitely not something I would upgrade until the supplied one dies (as all covers do).

- My electrician's 2 cents were that they should have knockouts near all corners, and that the control box was a little tight to get the wiring done. Other than that, he thought it was a straight-forward and easily accessible design.

[rin-spa-aic]

First impression is great. Tub is awesome and I'm impressed with the variety and quality of the therapy seats available.
Pump power is definitely sufficient and heater appears to work well.

Although I've been hot tubbing my whole life, I never realized the quality of therapy available from the tubs!  Usually I'm partying or just relaxing over a long period. Targeted jet action was never my primary goal.

I did not wet-test this tub before purchasing, so it took me a bit of time to figure out all the jets, the diverter valve, and different therapy seats.

This tub basically has two zones run by 2 pumps service 6 seats.  "Zone 1" is served by the two speed pump one. It runs the two waterfall seats as well as the foot jets, and seat with two spine jets.
"Zone 2" is served by high-speed pump two, it runs the three serious "therapy" seats.
Zone 1 is great, seats comfortable, waterfalls nice and relaxing, etc. When you are sitting in the seat with the waterfall full on you just feel warmth around your shoulders with very little noise.
Zone 2 is awesome, however to achieve the high power on two of the therapy seats the diverter valve must be used to send power either to the neck blaster seat, or back spinner seat.
This zone has 3 therapy seats (visible on picture as having pillows).
(counter clockwise from neck blaster)
a) neck blaster seat - a big seller for us as my wife carries all her stress here.  This seat takes all the power of zone 2 to function properly.  I can't figure out if the neck blaster jets should be submerged or not.  They do the job either way, but when not submerged are a bit noisy and splash some water out past your face. This seat is pretty comfortable and provides a good neck massage.
b) back spinner seat - this seat has 6 spinning massage jets which give a nice, and not too forceful massage across the entire back. The other great thing about this seat is that it opposes the foot jets and you can get a nice foot massage at the same time. I would like to not fire up zone 1 to have to get the foots, but I can see other advantages to having the jets separated.
c) back/arm massager seat - This seat has a strong back massage and also 4 jets that hit on the outside of my shoulders and upper arms.  After 1 weekend this is my favorite seat so far, although the shoulder/arm jets are a bit loud.


 Gripes:
- Nature2 - I have been a user of Nature2 for a long time. The way the filters are configured the Nature 2 doesn't sit correctly in position with any of the included attachments.  I'm going to have to rig something up to keep it suspended the recommended 1" above the bottom of the filter. It's a personal annoyance for me.
- Water level - I am not 100% sure where the water level should be. The installer said fill it to just below the pillow. I thought this might be too high, but with just 1 person in the tub it is too low to submerge the neck jets.  Are they even supposed to be submerged? I don't know.
The manual references a water level mark on the weir door.  I didn't notice this over the weekend and didn't read it in the manual until today. I will take a look tonight.

Generally I consider this tub on the quiet side from my past experiences. However there area few things.
- Noise a - when the tub was installed I heard a humming sound.  This was with the cabinet open, so I'm not sure how loud it would have been with the insulation in place and cabinet closed.  Anyway, it was the ground wire from the right side pump which was contacting the metal pump assembly.  I bent it to not contact and noise went away.
- Noise b - neck blaster jets.  if these jets aren't submerged they are rather loud.
- Noise c - arm/shoulder jets. these jets make noise. fine when getting a massage but annoying when not to the point where they need to be closed.

Overall the experience has been excellent and I am very satisfied with the purchase and selection of tubs!
I would recommend this to others.

Congrats to you too jonny!

[rin-spa-aic]

One area of primary concern with this tub is the insulation and cost to operate, especially here in the Northeast winter.

One of the big selling points was the lack of full foam and ease of service. This is offset by the oft questioned open design effectiveness.

When considering the tub it looked very easy to add insulation, now that I have it installed I am convinced it would not be that difficult to beef up the insulation.

I will be gauging the temperature over the next 10 days or so to see what type of heat loss is occurring.
First impression is that temperature in the middle of the side panels is running approximately 4 degrees higher than the closest non spa surface at the same height.  This tells me the spa is losing some energy, but I have no point of reference as to whether it's good or bad compared to other spa designs.

Between my own experiences and some internet research I can see three ways to quickly beef up the insulation each less than $100:
All would require removing all side panels.
1) Tape up a continuous radiant thermal barrier around the entire perimeter. (inexpensive - Costco heavy duty aluminum foil or dollar store mylar wrapping paper; better - ultratouch or atticfoil)
2) Stuff insulation into open cavities inside the cabinet to reduce the amount of space. I've seen recommendations of everything from roxul to plastic trash bags filled with packing peanuts.
3) Foam insulation sheathing board either permanently adhered to the panels, or fit within the steel frame.

After I collect some data I will probably move forward with the sheathing board and/or a continuous radiant thermal barrier.

If I do anything it will be detailed in a separate post.

Edit about observed heat retention - I last heated the tub on Saturday afternoon to 97 degrees.  Before I got out I set the temp to 92 since I knew I wouldn't make it in on Sunday.
When I opened the tub Monday night it was still at 95 degrees.
So 3 nights of 45 degrees and two days in the mid 60's and the tub lost just 2 degrees.
Filter cycle is set for 2 cycles of 2 hours daily., and I'm guessing since the temp was over the setting that it didn't heat during those cycles.

[rin-spa-aic]

It's about a month and a half later and I wanted to post a follow up review on my Maax Elite 7500.

I have been using the hot tub around 4-5 days a week. Minimum soak time is 15 minutes, more often 30-45 minutes (sometimes 60-75 minutes )

The tub has been great so far. I spend about 90% of the time in one of the 3 primary hydrotherapy seats. They are great.
I'm constantly changing the power of the jets, venturi settings, and configuration of the nozzles. All the variability is fantastic and I can always find some combination that suits the mood I am in.
I spend some time in the waterfall seats, but I have found that the seat that puts my dominant arm against the filter is a little constraining. The other seat is more comfortable but faces toward the house and neighbor's so it's not as desirable.

Primarily I have been the only one in the tub, so I can't yet speak to how it fits multiple people sit comfortably.

One feature I didn't really consider when purchasing was the lights. In my past hot tub experiences the light was basically to make it safer (in ground) during parties and to deter nighttime underwater antics during parties.
I have found that I really enjoy the lights.  Surprisingly my favorite color is red at night because it does not distract from staring up at the stars. I also like the deep blue color, I'll change it to blue if its early in the evening and I have things to do when I get out. It may be just in my head, but I feel like it leaves me more refreshed when I get out.

Energy usage / insulation. It's probably going to take 3 months to truly gauge the energy impact this has had on my bill because October and November this year were not comparable with occupancy in the house, appliance usage etc.
I am so far satisfied with the thermal pane type design, and will elaborate in a separate post.

Overall very happy with the quality of the tub, function, and overall purchase satisfaction.

[spaman--]

I was at this sale selling Maxx, Elite, Vita. Enjoy your new spa!!!!

[wmass-spa]

How has your experience with the Maxx Spa been. Was wondering how the energy efficiency was in the winter with that spa. How much higher have your electric bills been in the winter time.  I was looking at the Maxx spas but not much out there on them

[rin-spa-aic]

Experience - Excellent

I don't have really good data to pull from because this year has been much different than last year in many ways.

For a guesstimate I would say it's in the $50-$70 range per month (up by 300-400kwh).
Temp set at 99 degrees.
Filter runs 4 hours a day + whatever it takes to keep temp.
Usage at least 4 times a week between 20-60 minutes each time.
Exposed on an unfinished deck with wind protection on only 1 side (top, bottom, 3 sides exposed).

Just want to repeat that this year has been very different in terms of general electricity usage in the house, so these are just educated guesses.

I do have a floating foam blanket and added a layer of Reflectix insulation  (<$100 and 2hrs) because I couldn't resist modding and gives me some piece of mind.

Primary heat loss is at the top lip of the tub gauged multiple times by IR thermometer.

I had originally figured at least $50/mo minimum during the winter when we purchased the tub, so I am not far off my expectations. Guessing it will drop at least 30-40% into the summer (possibly more).

The peace of mind from having this style tub that is so accessible for repair is invaluable. I have had nightmare experiences in the past with most of the pool/spa companies around here. I feel that I have many options should I ever have an issue.


Overall my satisfaction with the tub is very high.  Can't beat going out for a relaxing soak, or firing up the jets for a couple different types of massages.

The buying experience from the dealer in Chicopee was very good.

Overall I would rate everything highly.
Quality/construction,
Value,
Satisfaction,
Ease of Operation.

It's definitely possible that there are lower operating cost tubs on the market, but I truly feel that I have maximized my dollar value in terms of overall experience.

[Tman122]

I'm not sure how anyone can judge value without 4-5 years of ownership.

[gaiusgracchus]

Excellent post.    Disregard comment about having to own for many years to evaluate the product.   You did a great job with your research and some of us are still finding it to be VERY helpful.
Thanks.